linux-decnet-user — Discussion for users of DECnet on Linux

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?

[Paul K. <pk...@eq...>]

>>>>> "Henry" == Henry W Miller <hen...@at...> writes:

 Henry> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning"
 Henry> <pk...@eq...> To: <dr...@wo...> Cc:
 Henry> <lin...@li...> Sent: Friday, June
 Henry> 21, 2002 11:12 Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] What DEC
 Henry> machines actually ran DECnet?


 >> >>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:
 >> 
 Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine writing for Jedi Knight Computers I
 Gregg> suppose I should have asked this question before,
 Gregg> but..... What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?
 >>  1. The PDP11, under RSX-11M, RSX-11S, RSX11-M+, P/OS, RSTS/E,
 >> RT11, or IAS.  Not DOS, MUMPS, RSX-11D, Ultrix, or
 >> Micropower/Pascal as far as I know.

 Henry> Are you speaking about DEC's DOS as opposed to MS-DOS/PC-DOS?

I meant DOS-11, the first operating system for the PDP11.

 Henry> DEC did introduce a DECnet-DOS in the late 1980's, which ran
 Henry> on a pre Windows PC under DOS with certain Ethernet cards or
 Henry> with a packet driver shim routine.  All things considered, it
 Henry> ran pretty well.

Good point, I forgot about that one.

 >> 2. VAX, under VMS, Ultrix, Digital Unix, or ELN.  3. DECsystem/20
 >> (TOPS-20).  4. DECsystem/10 (TOPS-10)

 Henry> Both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 utilized a PDP-11 front-end,
 Henry> connected to the KL-10 via a high speed connection called the
 Henry> DTE.  The interface was referred to as the DTE-11 for the
 Henry> PDP-11 portion, and the DTE-10 or DTE-20 for the connection to
 Henry> the KL-10, depending on whether it was a DECsystem-10 or
 Henry> DECSYSTEM-20.

 Henry> The PDP-11 was usually a PDP-11/34 or a PDP-11/40.  The KL
 Henry> could support up to three alternate front-ends; DTE0 being
 Henry> reserved for the connection to the main front-end, a PDP-11/40
 Henry> running a modified version of RSX, called RSX-11/F.

 Henry> Each of the other three front-ends could also contain a number
 Henry> of terminal lines (usually DZ-11's or DH-11's), line printers
 Henry> (LP-11), card reader and card punch, as well as, obviously,
 Henry> synch line interfaces to other such front-ends.

 Henry> In addition, the front-end's on the DECsystem-10 could also
 Henry> run ANF-10, (Advanced Networking Protocol) which was developed
 Henry> as a stopgap until DECnet-10 became available, and was a
 Henry> powerful networking protocol in it's own right.

 Henry> The backend code for DECnet was built inside the TOPS-10 and
 Henry> TOPS-20 operating systems, and allowed the network to be used
 Henry> as almost any other device on the system or network.

Not all 20s have the PDP11 front end; the 2020 (KS-20) does not as far
as I know.

I don't remember if DECnet on these machines used the PDP11 or not.
If yes, then only for some cases, because Ethernet was a native device
on the main system I/O bus, not connected via the PDP11.

 >> There are codepoints for PDP8 implementations but I don't think
 >> they actually existed.
 >> 

 Henry> IIRC, DECnet-8 did exist, but it did not leave very much room
 Henry> in the system to do much else!

It shouldn't be all that bad, after all the smallest RT11 and RSX-11S
systems with DECnet support were about the same size as large PDP8s...

	paul

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?

[Henry W. M. <hen...@at...>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Koning" <pk...@eq...>
To: <dr...@wo...>
Cc: <lin...@li...>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:12
Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?


> >>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:
>
>  Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine writing for Jedi Knight Computers I
>  Gregg> suppose I should have asked this question before,
>  Gregg> but..... What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?
>
> 1. The PDP11, under RSX-11M, RSX-11S, RSX11-M+, P/OS, RSTS/E, RT11, or
>    IAS.  Not DOS, MUMPS, RSX-11D, Ultrix, or Micropower/Pascal as far
>    as I know.

    Are you speaking about DEC's DOS as opposed to MS-DOS/PC-DOS?
DEC did introduce a DECnet-DOS in the late 1980's, which ran on a pre
Windows PC under DOS with certain Ethernet cards or with a packet driver
shim routine.  All things considered, it ran pretty well.

> 2. VAX, under VMS, Ultrix, Digital Unix, or ELN.
> 3. DECsystem/20 (TOPS-20).
> 4. DECsystem/10 (TOPS-10)

    Both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 utilized a PDP-11 front-end, connected
to the KL-10 via a high speed connection called the DTE.  The interface
was referred to as the DTE-11 for the PDP-11 portion, and the DTE-10
or DTE-20 for the connection to the KL-10, depending on whether it was
a DECsystem-10 or DECSYSTEM-20.

    The PDP-11 was usually a PDP-11/34 or a PDP-11/40.  The KL could
support up to three alternate front-ends; DTE0 being reserved for the
connection
to the main front-end, a PDP-11/40 running a modified version of RSX,
called
RSX-11/F.

    Each of the other three front-ends could also contain a number of
terminal
lines (usually DZ-11's or DH-11's), line printers (LP-11), card reader
and
card punch, as well as, obviously, synch line interfaces to other such
front-ends.

    In addition, the front-end's on the DECsystem-10 could also run
ANF-10,
(Advanced Networking Protocol) which was developed as a stopgap until
DECnet-10 became available, and was a powerful networking protocol in
it's
own right.

    The backend code for DECnet was built inside the TOPS-10 and TOPS-20
operating systems, and allowed the network to be used as almost any
other
device on the system or network.

> 5. Alpha, under VMS or Unix.
> 6. Various embedded systems typically based on the above, such as the
>    LPS40 printer (VAX/ELN based), an early terminal server (RSX-11S
>    based), etc.
>
> There are codepoints for PDP8 implementations but I don't think they
> actually existed.
>

    IIRC, DECnet-8 did exist, but it did not leave very much room in the
system to do much else!

> paul
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Sponsored by:
> ThinkGeek at http://www.ThinkGeek.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user

    Best,

-HWM

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Paul K. <pk...@eq...>]

Excerpt of message (sent 21 June 2002) by Patrick Caulfield:
> ts10 has a working ethernet in it's latest dev versions as I thnk Paul said...

No, I haven't used ts10.  The only pdp11 simulator I have used is
Ersatz-11.  That has both a working UNA and a working QNA emulation 
 
> > "So I wrote a little daemon which makes that happen, by posting reads on
> > each of the tap<n> units and propagating any received packets to the other
> > tap<n> units.  " Can you send me a copy of that program? I'd ask about a
> > copy of E11 for Linux as well, but I think your license forbids
> > redistribution, except from its vendor. Thanks anyway guys!
> 
> I imagine the Linux bridging code whould also do this.

No, it's at the wrong end.  The linux bridging code would retransmit
packets from one network interface to another.  My deamon reads
/dev/tap<n> and repeats packets seen on that side.  It's a bit like
the two sides of a pty.

I've attached a zip file (sorry, running windows this afternoon) with
ethertapd.  You'll find the source, a manpage, and some pieces for
startup scripts.  The startup script is driven by files in
/etc/sysconfig, some samples are provided.  It should be reasonably
self-explanatory.  :-)

    paul

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Patrick C. <pa...@ty...>]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2002 at 02:39:27PM -0400, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> You mentioned that you were working on an emulated ethernet adaptor,
> Patrick. Where are you now on it? I had orignally thought about the
> statement that one of us made, that of using the Ethertap interface. That's
> been depreciated in favor of the Tun/Tap interface. Why not write code to
> contact that arrangement? That's just a suggestion Patrick. Paul you stated

Initially the code (which currently doesn't work!) puts the interface
into promisc mode and squirts packets straight onto the network (that bit works
it's the DEQNA emulation that doesn't), this obviates the need for a working
Linux DECnet routing layer :-)

ts10 has a working ethernet in it's latest dev versions as I thnk Paul said and I have successfully coonected VMS under ts10 to Linux via tun/tap. My next
project (when I get rid of this terrible RSI) is to look down the DEQNA 
code in ts10 to fix my DEQNA for simh.


> "So I wrote a little daemon which makes that happen, by posting reads on
> each of the tap<n> units and propagating any received packets to the other
> tap<n> units.  " Can you send me a copy of that program? I'd ask about a
> copy of E11 for Linux as well, but I think your license forbids
> redistribution, except from its vendor. Thanks anyway guys!

I imagine the Linux bridging code whould also do this.

patrick

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine
You mentioned that you were working on an emulated ethernet adaptor,
Patrick. Where are you now on it? I had orignally thought about the
statement that one of us made, that of using the Ethertap interface. That's
been depreciated in favor of the Tun/Tap interface. Why not write code to
contact that arrangement? That's just a suggestion Patrick. Paul you stated
"So I wrote a little daemon which makes that happen, by posting reads on
each of the tap<n> units and propagating any received packets to the other
tap<n> units.  " Can you send me a copy of that program? I'd ask about a
copy of E11 for Linux as well, but I think your license forbids
redistribution, except from its vendor. Thanks anyway guys!
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Caulfield" <pa...@ty...>
To: "linux-decnet-user @lists.sourceforge.net"
<lin...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
this for real


> On Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 03:41:12PM -0400, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > It's nice to see mail on this list, and subject, its been way to quiet
> > lately. However, a quick question, then: Has anyone worked with an
emulator
> > for the PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? Its made by an outfit called,
D-Bit,
> > and they are based here in the state, their web site is
http://www.dbit.com/
> > it happens that the owner of the product, a fellow by the name whose
last
> > name is Wilson, states that his product will do nearly everything that
the
> > original will do. He has up a collection of webpages up that give a
healthy
> > explanation on the product. Since I believe the original ideas behind
DECnet
> > surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can correct me.), that
emulator
> > would a perfect fit for testing ideas, when we have software but not
> > hardware for them. I now invite questions, criticism, and much of
anything
> > else regarding this statement. Please note that I haven't had the chance
to
> > even consider it, I have been too busy with other problems.
>
> I've heard of it but never had the chance to play with it - not having a
Windows
> box. I have been using simh (simh.trailing-edge.net) which does a good
(free)
> PDP and VAX (& others) emulation on a collection of host OSs.
>
> What's missing is an emulated ethernet adaptor, I have started work on one
but
> it's takin gmore time thatn I thought. I'll post to the list when I get it
going
> though because it would mean you can run (eg) VMS emulated under linux !
>
>
> patrick
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
>                       >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
>

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?

[Paul K. <pk...@eq...>]

>>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:

 Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine writing for Jedi Knight Computers I
 Gregg> suppose I should have asked this question before,
 Gregg> but..... What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?

1. The PDP11, under RSX-11M, RSX-11S, RSX11-M+, P/OS, RSTS/E, RT11, or
   IAS.  Not DOS, MUMPS, RSX-11D, Ultrix, or Micropower/Pascal as far
   as I know.
2. VAX, under VMS, Ultrix, Digital Unix, or ELN.
3. DECsystem/20 (TOPS-20).
4. DECsystem/10 (TOPS-10)
5. Alpha, under VMS or Unix.
6. Various embedded systems typically based on the above, such as the
   LPS40 printer (VAX/ELN based), an early terminal server (RSX-11S
   based), etc.

There are codepoints for PDP8 implementations but I don't think they
actually existed.

	 paul

[Linux-decnet-user] What DEC machines actually ran DECnet?

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine writing for Jedi Knight Computers
I suppose I should have asked this question before, but..... What DEC
machines actually ran DECnet? I mean I know that the PDP-11 had a version of
it installed, and so did the Vax, but are there any others that we should
include, and that I should know about?
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[<cal...@ne...>]

Hello all, 
hey Paul... long time!

I have used E11 for years and like it tremendously, got excellent support from John. I actually gened a new rsxm 4.8 and m+ using e-11 for y2k.
The original media was tk50...

I know that it has been available for linux, but can not afford it.
I only know of windows experimenters version supporting two dl0.

I have not used his deuna emulation but I have used it to write pascal and f77 programs.

Ed Calderon


Paul Koning <pk...@eq...> wrote:

>>>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:
>
> Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine It's nice to see mail on this list,
> Gregg> and subject, its been way to quiet lately. However, a quick
> Gregg> question, then: Has anyone worked with an emulator for the
> Gregg> PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? ...Since I believe the original ideas
> Gregg> behind DECnet surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can
> Gregg> correct me.), that emulator would a perfect fit for testing
> Gregg> ideas, when we have software but not hardware for them. I now
> Gregg> invite questions, criticism, and much of anything else
> Gregg> regarding this statement. 
>
>Absolutely true.  That's how I did my compatibility testing and
>tweaking to make DECnet/Linux be happy talking to DECnet/E (for
>RSTS).  That works very nicely especially if you use an EtherTAP
>simulated Ethernet to tie the two together, with tcpdump to watch the
>packets flying by.
>
>Ersatz/11 is an impressive piece of work.  I won't say too much more
>because I'm a biased observer (since John is a friend).  Let me just
>summarize by saying that it supports every PDP11 OS ever tried on it
>(including hard ones like IAS and 2.11 BSD) and a large collection of
>emulated I/O devices.
>
>     paul
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>
>Sponsored by:
>ThinkGeek at http://www.ThinkGeek.com/
>_______________________________________________
>Linux-decnet-user mailing list
>Lin...@li...
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
>


__________________________________________________________________
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Thank you indeed for the efforts in bring it to his attention. And yes this
list does do that. Blame it on that mailman.
Not surprisingly when I got involved with this project earlier, I e-mailed
Bob Soupnik to discuss that issue. It took him a while to get back to me,
but his gripe was that his software did not, at the time have an emulated
network device. For myself, I am thinking of borrowing the idea for one from
a different project on the same servers. But I'd like to see Patrick's
ideas.
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zane H. Healy" <he...@ar...>
To: <lin...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
this for real


> Patrick was kind enough to copy his reply to the list, I'd forgotten that
> this is one of those blasted lists you've got to manually set the TO: or
> else it goes directly to whoever posted the message you're replying to.
>
> The work Fred was doing looks most promissing, unfortunatly I can't find
any
> mention of it later than the post from last October, and that was for SIMH
> 2.7-12 (current is 2.9-10).
>
> Zane
>
>
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > Just for the record when did that message arrive? I don't have it in my
> > collection. But it is based on my thread because that's my title. And
yes,
> > it seems as if he was very close indeed.
> > Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
> > "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Patrick Caulfield" <pa...@ty...>
> > To: "DECnet list" <lin...@li...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and
yes
> > this for real
> >
> >
> > > On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:52AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > > > >I've heard of it but never had the chance to play with it - not
> > > > >having a Windows box. I have been using simh
> > > > >(simh.trailing-edge.net) which does a good (free)
> > > > >PDP and VAX (& others) emulation on a collection of host OSs.
> > > >
> > > > For a the best list of DEC emulators (at least that I'm aware of),
> > > > I'd recommend checking out my webpages at:
> > > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html
> > > >
> > > > >What's missing is an emulated ethernet adaptor, I have started
> > > > >work on one but it's takin gmore time thatn I thought. I'll post
> > > > >to the list when I get it going though because it would mean you
> > > > >can run (eg) VMS emulated under linux !
> > > >
> > > > You might want to contact Bob, there are several people working on
> > > > this.  For example, I know that Johnny Eriksson has been working on
> > > > adding DEUNA support to the KS10 SIMH emulator.
> > > >
> > > > There are a lot of us anxiously awaiting ethernet support in SIMH,
> > > > I'm looking forwards to it being able to do everything my real
> > > > systems can do.
> > >
> > > Looks like Fred Van Kempen was pretty near:
> > >
> > >
> >
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=simh+deqna&hl=en&lr=&selm=7263E31101C6D411
> > 96490008C7B2BFC323249C%40mwnt4.microwalt.nl&rnum=6
> > >
> > >
> > > patrick
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > >                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
> > >                    >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> > > Lin...@li...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> >                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
> >                    >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> > Lin...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
>                    >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Eric D. <di...@di...>]

> Patrick was kind enough to copy his reply to the list, I'd forgotten that
> this is one of those blasted lists you've got to manually set the TO: or
> else it goes directly to whoever posted the message you're replying to.
> 
> The work Fred was doing looks most promissing, unfortunatly I can't find any
> mention of it later than the post from last October, and that was for SIMH
> 2.7-12 (current is 2.9-10).

Timothy Stark's TS10 has DELQA emulation in the most recent
development versions.  I was able to telnet in and out of
the emulated VAX running VMS.  There were a few minor bugs,
but it's more or less there.
-- 
Eric Dittman
di...@di...
Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Zane H. H. <he...@ar...>]

Patrick was kind enough to copy his reply to the list, I'd forgotten that
this is one of those blasted lists you've got to manually set the TO: or
else it goes directly to whoever posted the message you're replying to.

The work Fred was doing looks most promissing, unfortunatly I can't find any
mention of it later than the post from last October, and that was for SIMH
2.7-12 (current is 2.9-10).

		Zane


> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Just for the record when did that message arrive? I don't have it in my
> collection. But it is based on my thread because that's my title. And yes,
> it seems as if he was very close indeed.
> Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
> "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Caulfield" <pa...@ty...>
> To: "DECnet list" <lin...@li...>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
> this for real
> 
> 
> > On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:52AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > > >I've heard of it but never had the chance to play with it - not
> > > >having a Windows box. I have been using simh
> > > >(simh.trailing-edge.net) which does a good (free)
> > > >PDP and VAX (& others) emulation on a collection of host OSs.
> > >
> > > For a the best list of DEC emulators (at least that I'm aware of),
> > > I'd recommend checking out my webpages at:
> > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html
> > >
> > > >What's missing is an emulated ethernet adaptor, I have started
> > > >work on one but it's takin gmore time thatn I thought. I'll post
> > > >to the list when I get it going though because it would mean you
> > > >can run (eg) VMS emulated under linux !
> > >
> > > You might want to contact Bob, there are several people working on
> > > this.  For example, I know that Johnny Eriksson has been working on
> > > adding DEUNA support to the KS10 SIMH emulator.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of us anxiously awaiting ethernet support in SIMH,
> > > I'm looking forwards to it being able to do everything my real
> > > systems can do.
> >
> > Looks like Fred Van Kempen was pretty near:
> >
> >
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=simh+deqna&hl=en&lr=&selm=7263E31101C6D411
> 96490008C7B2BFC323249C%40mwnt4.microwalt.nl&rnum=6
> >
> >
> > patrick
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> >                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
> >                    >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> > Lin...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
> >
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
>                    >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
> 

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Just for the record when did that message arrive? I don't have it in my
collection. But it is based on my thread because that's my title. And yes,
it seems as if he was very close indeed.
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Caulfield" <pa...@ty...>
To: "DECnet list" <lin...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
this for real


> On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:52AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > >I've heard of it but never had the chance to play with it - not
> > >having a Windows box. I have been using simh
> > >(simh.trailing-edge.net) which does a good (free)
> > >PDP and VAX (& others) emulation on a collection of host OSs.
> >
> > For a the best list of DEC emulators (at least that I'm aware of),
> > I'd recommend checking out my webpages at:
> > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html
> >
> > >What's missing is an emulated ethernet adaptor, I have started
> > >work on one but it's takin gmore time thatn I thought. I'll post
> > >to the list when I get it going though because it would mean you
> > >can run (eg) VMS emulated under linux !
> >
> > You might want to contact Bob, there are several people working on
> > this.  For example, I know that Johnny Eriksson has been working on
> > adding DEUNA support to the KS10 SIMH emulator.
> >
> > There are a lot of us anxiously awaiting ethernet support in SIMH,
> > I'm looking forwards to it being able to do everything my real
> > systems can do.
>
> Looks like Fred Van Kempen was pretty near:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=simh+deqna&hl=en&lr=&selm=7263E31101C6D411
96490008C7B2BFC323249C%40mwnt4.microwalt.nl&rnum=6
>
>
> patrick
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>                    Bringing you mounds of caffeinated joy
>                    >>>     http://thinkgeek.com/sf    <<<
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
>

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Patrick C. <pa...@ty...>]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2002 at 11:33:52AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> >I've heard of it but never had the chance to play with it - not
> >having a Windows box. I have been using simh
> >(simh.trailing-edge.net) which does a good (free)
> >PDP and VAX (& others) emulation on a collection of host OSs.
> 
> For a the best list of DEC emulators (at least that I'm aware of),
> I'd recommend checking out my webpages at:
> http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html
> 
> >What's missing is an emulated ethernet adaptor, I have started
> >work on one but it's takin gmore time thatn I thought. I'll post
> >to the list when I get it going though because it would mean you
> >can run (eg) VMS emulated under linux !
> 
> You might want to contact Bob, there are several people working on
> this.  For example, I know that Johnny Eriksson has been working on
> adding DEUNA support to the KS10 SIMH emulator.
> 
> There are a lot of us anxiously awaiting ethernet support in SIMH,
> I'm looking forwards to it being able to do everything my real
> systems can do.

Looks like Fred Van Kempen was pretty near:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=simh+deqna&hl=en&lr=&selm=7263E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC323249C%40mwnt4.microwalt.nl&rnum=6


patrick

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Paul K. <pk...@eq...>]

>>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:

 Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine normally with Jedi Knight Computers
 Gregg> Can our project be used when E-11, (Or E/11), be used when it
 Gregg> is running on Windows? I have my setup configured so that the
 Gregg> Linux box, is connected via normal Ethernet to my Windows box.

Ersatz-11 runs on DOS or Linux.  So you can run it on Windows in a DOS
box.  On either OS, it can access an Ethernet device and make it look
like a PDP11 Ethernet controller.  I've done this on Windows, long
ago.  If I remember right, it's done using "packet driver" -- it's in
the documentation.  That worked fine.

For my own use I found it more convenient to have everything on a
single system, so the Linux version of E-11 with the Ethertap
simulated Ethernet is better for my needs. 

	  paul

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Patrick C. <pa...@ty...>]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 03:41:12PM -0400, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> It's nice to see mail on this list, and subject, its been way to quiet
> lately. However, a quick question, then: Has anyone worked with an emulator
> for the PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? Its made by an outfit called, D-Bit,
> and they are based here in the state, their web site is http://www.dbit.com/
> it happens that the owner of the product, a fellow by the name whose last
> name is Wilson, states that his product will do nearly everything that the
> original will do. He has up a collection of webpages up that give a healthy
> explanation on the product. Since I believe the original ideas behind DECnet
> surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can correct me.), that emulator
> would a perfect fit for testing ideas, when we have software but not
> hardware for them. I now invite questions, criticism, and much of anything
> else regarding this statement. Please note that I haven't had the chance to
> even consider it, I have been too busy with other problems.

I've heard of it but never had the chance to play with it - not having a Windows
box. I have been using simh (simh.trailing-edge.net) which does a good (free)
PDP and VAX (& others) emulation on a collection of host OSs. 

What's missing is an emulated ethernet adaptor, I have started work on one but
it's takin gmore time thatn I thought. I'll post to the list when I get it going
though because it would mean you can run (eg) VMS emulated under linux !


patrick

[Linux-decnet-user] Building or re-building the sources

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine actually with Jedi Knight Computers
I just finished installing a Pre8.0 version of Slackware. I was then able to
build, and install and get to work the 2.4.18 kernel. I also was able to
build, and install the base components of Linux-Decnet. Is anyone on the
list building theirs on Slackware as well? I'd appreciate these responses to
be sent via the usual off list processes so as to not flood the list with
replies.
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine normally with Jedi Knight Computers
Can our project be used when E-11, (Or E/11), be used when it is running on
Windows? I have my setup configured so that the Linux box, is connected via
normal Ethernet to my Windows box.
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg C Levine" <dr...@wo...>
To: "Paul Koning" <pk...@eq...>
Cc: <lin...@li...>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
this for real


> Hello from Gregg C Levine normally with Jedi Knight Computers
> Thanks Paul. Even though he and I have only occasionally exchanged e-mail
I
> am including myself in that rare collection of friends via the Internet. I
> figured that one of you were the lucky ones, who did use the E-11 product.
> Your name wasn't in the running, though, just a candidate. Oh and the list
> of candidates was a short one, maybe two or three.  I'll figure out an
> appropriate arrangement for myself, and see what I can dummy up here. Can
> you post a recipe behind how you did your testing? And thank you for your
> quick reply.
> Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
> "How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Koning" <pk...@eq...>
> To: <dr...@wo...>
> Cc: <lin...@li...>
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
> this for real
>
>
> > >>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:
> >
> >  Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine It's nice to see mail on this list,
> >  Gregg> and subject, its been way to quiet lately. However, a quick
> >  Gregg> question, then: Has anyone worked with an emulator for the
> >  Gregg> PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? ...Since I believe the original
> ideas
> >  Gregg> behind DECnet surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can
> >  Gregg> correct me.), that emulator would a perfect fit for testing
> >  Gregg> ideas, when we have software but not hardware for them. I now
> >  Gregg> invite questions, criticism, and much of anything else
> >  Gregg> regarding this statement.
> >
> > Absolutely true.  That's how I did my compatibility testing and
> > tweaking to make DECnet/Linux be happy talking to DECnet/E (for
> > RSTS).  That works very nicely especially if you use an EtherTAP
> > simulated Ethernet to tie the two together, with tcpdump to watch the
> > packets flying by.
> >
> > Ersatz/11 is an impressive piece of work.  I won't say too much more
> > because I'm a biased observer (since John is a friend).  Let me just
> > summarize by saying that it supports every PDP11 OS ever tried on it
> > (including hard ones like IAS and 2.11 BSD) and a large collection of
> > emulated I/O devices.
> >
> > paul
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
>
> Sponsored by:
> ThinkGeek at http://www.ThinkGeek.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Paul K. <pk...@eq...>]

>>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:

 Gregg> ... Can you post a recipe behind how you did
 Gregg> your testing? 

As I mentioned, I used ethertap, which is a configurable feature in
Linux 2.4 (and 2.2 as well, I think).

The biggest issue with ethertap (apart from inadequate documentation)
is that out of the box it only simulates an ethernet port, not a LAN.
In other words, if you have several of them, sending to one doesn't
cause the data in question to appear on the other ports.

So I wrote a little daemon which makes that happen, by posting reads
on each of the tap<n> units and propagating any received packets to
the other tap<n> units.  I sent that to the author of the ethertap
facility, but I don't know what has happened to it since.  If there's
interest, I can post it here; it's small enough.

So then I configured tap0, tap1, and tap2.  I hook them up with
ethertapd, tell decnet/linux to use tap0, tell ersatz-11 to simulate a
UNA or QNA on tap1, and give tap2 to tcpdump.  Prestochango -- a LAN
in a laptop, not bothering anyone, with full packet trace and two
separate decnet implementations talking to each other.

This is how I did the rmterm support for decnet/e...

	 paul

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine normally with Jedi Knight Computers
Thanks Paul. Even though he and I have only occasionally exchanged e-mail I
am including myself in that rare collection of friends via the Internet. I
figured that one of you were the lucky ones, who did use the E-11 product.
Your name wasn't in the running, though, just a candidate. Oh and the list
of candidates was a short one, maybe two or three.  I'll figure out an
appropriate arrangement for myself, and see what I can dummy up here. Can
you post a recipe behind how you did your testing? And thank you for your
quick reply.
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Koning" <pk...@eq...>
To: <dr...@wo...>
Cc: <lin...@li...>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes
this for real


> >>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:
>
>  Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine It's nice to see mail on this list,
>  Gregg> and subject, its been way to quiet lately. However, a quick
>  Gregg> question, then: Has anyone worked with an emulator for the
>  Gregg> PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? ...Since I believe the original
ideas
>  Gregg> behind DECnet surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can
>  Gregg> correct me.), that emulator would a perfect fit for testing
>  Gregg> ideas, when we have software but not hardware for them. I now
>  Gregg> invite questions, criticism, and much of anything else
>  Gregg> regarding this statement.
>
> Absolutely true.  That's how I did my compatibility testing and
> tweaking to make DECnet/Linux be happy talking to DECnet/E (for
> RSTS).  That works very nicely especially if you use an EtherTAP
> simulated Ethernet to tie the two together, with tcpdump to watch the
> packets flying by.
>
> Ersatz/11 is an impressive piece of work.  I won't say too much more
> because I'm a biased observer (since John is a friend).  Let me just
> summarize by saying that it supports every PDP11 OS ever tried on it
> (including hard ones like IAS and 2.11 BSD) and a large collection of
> emulated I/O devices.
>
> paul
>
>

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Paul K. <pk...@eq...>]

>>>>> "Gregg" == Gregg C Levine <dr...@wo...> writes:

 Gregg> Hello from Gregg C Levine It's nice to see mail on this list,
 Gregg> and subject, its been way to quiet lately. However, a quick
 Gregg> question, then: Has anyone worked with an emulator for the
 Gregg> PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? ...Since I believe the original ideas
 Gregg> behind DECnet surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can
 Gregg> correct me.), that emulator would a perfect fit for testing
 Gregg> ideas, when we have software but not hardware for them. I now
 Gregg> invite questions, criticism, and much of anything else
 Gregg> regarding this statement. 

Absolutely true.  That's how I did my compatibility testing and
tweaking to make DECnet/Linux be happy talking to DECnet/E (for
RSTS).  That works very nicely especially if you use an EtherTAP
simulated Ethernet to tie the two together, with tcpdump to watch the
packets flying by.

Ersatz/11 is an impressive piece of work.  I won't say too much more
because I'm a biased observer (since John is a friend).  Let me just
summarize by saying that it supports every PDP11 OS ever tried on it
(including hard ones like IAS and 2.11 BSD) and a large collection of
emulated I/O devices.

	 paul

[Linux-decnet-user] A strange idea worth considering and yes this for real

[Gregg C L. <dr...@wo...>]

Hello from Gregg C Levine
It's nice to see mail on this list, and subject, its been way to quiet
lately. However, a quick question, then: Has anyone worked with an emulator
for the PDP-11, called the Ersatz-11? Its made by an outfit called, D-Bit,
and they are based here in the state, their web site is http://www.dbit.com/
it happens that the owner of the product, a fellow by the name whose last
name is Wilson, states that his product will do nearly everything that the
original will do. He has up a collection of webpages up that give a healthy
explanation on the product. Since I believe the original ideas behind DECnet
surfaced on the PDP-11, (Someone will, and can correct me.), that emulator
would a perfect fit for testing ideas, when we have software but not
hardware for them. I now invite questions, criticism, and much of anything
else regarding this statement. Please note that I haven't had the chance to
even consider it, I have been too busy with other problems.
Gregg C Levine dr...@wo...
"How many floors does this TARDIS of yours have, anyway?"

Re: [Linux-decnet-user] netstat command

[Steven W. <st...@gw...>]

Hi,

Did you select the DECnet support for SIOCGIFCONF ? It sounds like you
might have done,

Steve.

>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> This is probably a na=EFve question so apologies. I'm running
> dnprogs2.17 on Redhat7.2. While ever the decnet services are started,
> the netstat -ei command can't locate the network devices eth0 or lo
> (even though TCP services are still working fine) Should this command
> still work with Decnet running?
>=20
> MAC address is all set correctly and all is well right up till I
> start the Decnet daemons.=20
>=20
> Any advice appreciated - Rob.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ***********************************************************************=
*********************
> E mail Disclaimer
>=20
> You agree that you have read and understood this disclaimer and you agr=
ee to be bound by its terms.
>=20
> The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with=
 it (if any) are confidential and intended for the addressee only.  If yo=
u have received this  e-mail in error please notify the originator.   =20
>=20
> This e-mail and any attachments have been scanned for certain viruses p=
rior to sending but neither Northern Electric plc nor Yorkshire Power Gro=
up Ltd nor their associated companies   from whom this e-mail originates =
shall be liable for any losses as a result of any viruses being passed on.
>=20
> No warranty of any kind is given in respect of any information containe=
d in this   e-mail and you should be aware that that it might be incomple=
te, out of date or incorrect. It is therefore essential that you verify a=
ll such information with us before placing any reliance upon it.
>=20
> Northern Electric plc
> Carliol House
> Market Street
> Newcastle-upon-Tyne
> NE1 6NE
> Registered in England and Wales: Number 2366942
>=20
> Yorkshire Power Group Limited
> Carliol House
> Market Street
> Newcastle-upon-Tyne
> NE1 6NE
> Registered in England and Wales: Number  3227432
>=20
>=20
> ***********************************************************************=
*********************
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________________________
>=20
> Sponsored by:
> ThinkGeek at http://www.ThinkGeek.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-decnet-user mailing list
> Lin...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/linux-decnet-user
>=20

[Linux-decnet-user] netstat command

[<Rob...@ye...>]

Hi,

This is probably a na=EFve question so apologies. I'm running
dnprogs2.17 on Redhat7.2. While ever the decnet services are started,
the netstat -ei command can't locate the network devices eth0 or lo
(even though TCP services are still working fine) Should this command
still work with Decnet running?

MAC address is all set correctly and all is well right up till I
start the Decnet daemons.=20

Any advice appreciated - Rob.




***************************************************************************=
*****************
E mail Disclaimer

You agree that you have read and understood this disclaimer and you agree t=
o be bound by its terms.

The information contained in this e-mail and any files transmitted with it =
(if any) are confidential and intended for the addressee only.  If you have=
 received this  e-mail in error please notify the originator.   =20

This e-mail and any attachments have been scanned for certain viruses prior=
 to sending but neither Northern Electric plc nor Yorkshire Power Group Ltd=
 nor their associated companies   from whom this e-mail originates shall be=
 liable for any losses as a result of any viruses being passed on.

No warranty of any kind is given in respect of any information contained in=
 this   e-mail and you should be aware that that it might be incomplete, ou=
t of date or incorrect. It is therefore essential that you verify all such =
information with us before placing any reliance upon it.

Northern Electric plc
Carliol House
Market Street
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
NE1 6NE
Registered in England and Wales: Number 2366942

Yorkshire Power Group Limited
Carliol House
Market Street
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
NE1 6NE
Registered in England and Wales: Number  3227432


***************************************************************************=
*****************