We started these discussions and exchanges a DECADE ago!!! A LOT has been discussed and a lot has happened. Many improvements have been made in the process.
BUT…
After thinking about the state of mind of many of us – tired, withdrawn, frustrated and detached. As well as my own commitments to work and family, I have come to the conclusion that we should all take a break from the conference calls and focus on ourselves and when there is time work to get some progress on the various Open Source projects we have been championing.
I myself have a new project at work with a TIGHT SCHEDULE with multiple databases, multiple cluster, production, development, quality assurance, backup, gateways, disaster recovery, inter-company data exchanges and a new client. I also have about four or more small projects going on at any one time for the rest of the my current client and even projects for myself. Not to mention I would like to find time to visit family and friends in several states West of the Mississippi and East of the Pacific Ocean, many of whom I have not seen since 2017 (some of that may have to wait until after this new project is completed in early 2023 or so).
As such I am not scheduling any more conference calls until at LEAST September. I do want to keep communications open and I want comment and feedback from ALL!!!
We had minimal discussion last conference call other than to some extent this discussion and trying to rally more troops to help in the process.
John and I STILL BELIEVE that the GNUlib Assist Library makes the most sense to help reduce the effort of porting to OpenVMS the myriad of Open Source Packages that are out there and which are beneficial but which folks have not undertaken due to the various efforts that have be more or less randomly applied based upon the findings during the porting process. If we could get a build with minimal effort and then worry about how to optimize and integrate OpenVMS specific features the process could be sped up by at least an order of magnitude or more.
Anyway, let me know your thoughts. Keep me informed of your efforts and along the way we will distribute on a irregular basis news from the Open Source On OpenVMS Community!
Thanks!
Best,
Bill.
Bill Pedersen
864 490 8863
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Howdy! I know a few of us are coming out of the woodwork with the outpouring of new interest from the floodgates of x86 slowly opening, it definitely looks like more troops are starting to arrive! Just a few months ago I got my own copies and booted up my itanium to start moving stuff forward off of it for the first time in 6-7 years! At this rate i'm going to have to dig out my Alpha too... i've been writing the past month entirely new code, and my first test case/user was on a physical VAX of all things!
Just chiming in that some of the troops are rallying once again.
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One of the big problems we have had is that the VMS CRTL is not compatible enough with Linux and that we can not run tests. If we can get gnulib-assist fully fleshed out and tested, we can get a lot of stuff both ported and tested.
The testing is sorely needed. We get a lot of bug reports where something does not work that would have shown up if we had run the unit tests.
We also get bug reports about something broke in a newer port from an older port, and in the case of a GNV component, we do do not have accurate build information of the older port to determine what may have changed to break it.
So gnulib assist is set up with tests to show what is not working right in the VMS CRTL and also tests to show that the issue is fixed.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I appreciate folks looking to get back and involved.
This last year has been VERY BUSY and VERY TIME CONSUMING for me both professionally and personally. I wish I could say it was slowing down or time was being freed up, but it does not seem to be the case. But it is not that I have been sitting and not doing anything.
Most of my open source effort has been around tools to support monitoring OpenVMS for customers and feed data to some of the newer tools, such as SPLUNK>. A couple customers are either using or moving to SPLUNK> (and away from BMC PATROL) so it was to a certain extent a natural thing to do. I have implemented a AUDIT Event Forwarder for SPLUNK> as well as resurrected the OPC_SYSLOG work done by Heinz Genhart, who has since retired to the South Pacific. There is more to do in each of them.
I have also been doing some very VMSish things with using Perfdat to feed exception information to its built in alert process and then use that to generate SYSLOG messages. A similar functionality has has been incorporated into tools (usually DCL scripts) to monitor process presence, file age, and other aspects of OpenVMS systems and then via SPLUNK> and other tools generate alterts.
On the VSI front I have done some testing of their I64 OpenSSH port, which had some issues of properly authenticating, when initially tested it did not support PASSWORD but did support INTERACTIVE, which seemed a bit strange - it did run on OpenVMS 8.4. I have not yet had a chance to test the Alpha OpenSSH port, need to take the time to manually install it as the initial kit was tied to VSI specific versions of OpenVMS, not that is should be.
I have not yet decided if I will restart the Open Source on OpenVMS Conference Calls. I may see how I go first as far as allocating some time and getting more effort into the Open Source process again.
Please chime in!
Please consider getting involved JUST A LITTLE BIT to help with testing and to help move "gnulib-assist" fleshed out and available.
Thanks!
Best,
Bill.
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
I have not yet had a chance to test the Alpha OpenSSH port, need to take the time to manually install it as the initial kit was tied to VSI specific versions of OpenVMS, not that is should be.
I recall that being a licensing issue - VSI can't support HP VMS at a code fix level/release updates/updated LPs for it, only VSI builds. While for example, i'm told they have the rights to do a VAX release, they can't release (only do tech support/troubleshooting - but not issue patches) any updates/fixes for it unless they made a VAX release their own, even if it was a 100% binary identical (except VSI branding) release. You'd then have to update to their release (even if it was just a branding change and zero else) in order to use any LP updates from them.
Basically, it has to be a VSI release to use VSI LPs. That's an HP agreement problem, not a technical problem, unfortunately.
At the same point too, since VSI isn't selling VAX licensing, you still have to claw to HP if you need that - and there's maybe one or two people inside HP who can still help with that, as far as i'm aware.
Last edit: Gary Sparkes 2023-05-29
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I have not yet had a chance to test the Alpha OpenSSH port, need to take the time to manually install it as the initial kit was tied to VSI specific versions of OpenVMS, not that is should be.
I recall that being a licensing issue - VSI can't support HP VMS at a code fix level/release updates/updated LPs for it, only VSI builds. While for example, i'm told they have the rights to do a VAX release, they can't release (only do tech support/troubleshooting - but not issue patches) any updates/fixes for it unless they made a VAX release their own, even if it was a 100% binary identical (except VSI branding) release. You'd then have to update to their release (even if it was just a branding change and zero else) in order to use any LP updates from them.
Basically, it has to be a VSI release to use VSI LPs. That's an HP agreement problem, not a technical problem, unfortunately.
While this observation may be true of LPs in general, it seems unlikely to be true for OpenSSH since HPE does not have any copyright claims on it, the port was produced by VSI, not HPE, and it is released under a liberal open source license:
So I don't think there are any legal restrictions that would preclude VSI from releasing OpenSSH for HPE releases of VMS. But it's awfully hard to think of any reason that they would do so.
Craig A. Berry
"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
difficult than getting in."
Brad Leithauser
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
So I don't think there are any legal restrictions that would preclude VSI from releasing OpenSSH for HPE releases of VMS. But it's awfully hard to think of any reason that they would do so.
Well, as I said before, I had heard that they can't offer any binary packages - open source or not - for VSI branded releases, hence not releasing anything for VAX even though they support customers with VAX because of their license agreement.
I suppose they could provide a patch set and MMS file for you to build yourself, but they wouldn't support that build..... so likely just not worth their time.
Just like if they did a straight rebranded recompile of the old OS .... not enough customers, though it has been mentioned they would entertain doing a VAX build of the OS so that they could if someone threw enough (and i read that to mean 'A LOT') of money at them.
But this is related to why they can't give hobbyist licenses for VAX either most likely, unless they make a VSI build of VAX/VMS. Which, they've said they could, but you have to make it worthwhile to them.....
If you would like to refer to this comment somewhere else in this project, copy and paste the following link:
We started these discussions and exchanges a DECADE ago!!! A LOT has been discussed and a lot has happened. Many improvements have been made in the process.
BUT…
After thinking about the state of mind of many of us – tired, withdrawn, frustrated and detached. As well as my own commitments to work and family, I have come to the conclusion that we should all take a break from the conference calls and focus on ourselves and when there is time work to get some progress on the various Open Source projects we have been championing.
I myself have a new project at work with a TIGHT SCHEDULE with multiple databases, multiple cluster, production, development, quality assurance, backup, gateways, disaster recovery, inter-company data exchanges and a new client. I also have about four or more small projects going on at any one time for the rest of the my current client and even projects for myself. Not to mention I would like to find time to visit family and friends in several states West of the Mississippi and East of the Pacific Ocean, many of whom I have not seen since 2017 (some of that may have to wait until after this new project is completed in early 2023 or so).
As such I am not scheduling any more conference calls until at LEAST September. I do want to keep communications open and I want comment and feedback from ALL!!!
We had minimal discussion last conference call other than to some extent this discussion and trying to rally more troops to help in the process.
John and I STILL BELIEVE that the GNUlib Assist Library makes the most sense to help reduce the effort of porting to OpenVMS the myriad of Open Source Packages that are out there and which are beneficial but which folks have not undertaken due to the various efforts that have be more or less randomly applied based upon the findings during the porting process. If we could get a build with minimal effort and then worry about how to optimize and integrate OpenVMS specific features the process could be sped up by at least an order of magnitude or more.
Anyway, let me know your thoughts. Keep me informed of your efforts and along the way we will distribute on a irregular basis news from the Open Source On OpenVMS Community!
Thanks!
Best,
Bill.
Bill Pedersen
864 490 8863
Howdy! I know a few of us are coming out of the woodwork with the outpouring of new interest from the floodgates of x86 slowly opening, it definitely looks like more troops are starting to arrive! Just a few months ago I got my own copies and booted up my itanium to start moving stuff forward off of it for the first time in 6-7 years! At this rate i'm going to have to dig out my Alpha too... i've been writing the past month entirely new code, and my first test case/user was on a physical VAX of all things!
Just chiming in that some of the troops are rallying once again.
Please take a look at https://sourceforge.net/p/gnv/gnulib_assist/ci/master/tree/vms/vms_gnulib_assist.md .
One of the big problems we have had is that the VMS CRTL is not compatible enough with Linux and that we can not run tests. If we can get gnulib-assist fully fleshed out and tested, we can get a lot of stuff both ported and tested.
The testing is sorely needed. We get a lot of bug reports where something does not work that would have shown up if we had run the unit tests.
We also get bug reports about something broke in a newer port from an older port, and in the case of a GNV component, we do do not have accurate build information of the older port to determine what may have changed to break it.
So gnulib assist is set up with tests to show what is not working right in the VMS CRTL and also tests to show that the issue is fixed.
I appreciate folks looking to get back and involved.
This last year has been VERY BUSY and VERY TIME CONSUMING for me both professionally and personally. I wish I could say it was slowing down or time was being freed up, but it does not seem to be the case. But it is not that I have been sitting and not doing anything.
Most of my open source effort has been around tools to support monitoring OpenVMS for customers and feed data to some of the newer tools, such as SPLUNK>. A couple customers are either using or moving to SPLUNK> (and away from BMC PATROL) so it was to a certain extent a natural thing to do. I have implemented a AUDIT Event Forwarder for SPLUNK> as well as resurrected the OPC_SYSLOG work done by Heinz Genhart, who has since retired to the South Pacific. There is more to do in each of them.
I have also been doing some very VMSish things with using Perfdat to feed exception information to its built in alert process and then use that to generate SYSLOG messages. A similar functionality has has been incorporated into tools (usually DCL scripts) to monitor process presence, file age, and other aspects of OpenVMS systems and then via SPLUNK> and other tools generate alterts.
On the VSI front I have done some testing of their I64 OpenSSH port, which had some issues of properly authenticating, when initially tested it did not support PASSWORD but did support INTERACTIVE, which seemed a bit strange - it did run on OpenVMS 8.4. I have not yet had a chance to test the Alpha OpenSSH port, need to take the time to manually install it as the initial kit was tied to VSI specific versions of OpenVMS, not that is should be.
I have not yet decided if I will restart the Open Source on OpenVMS Conference Calls. I may see how I go first as far as allocating some time and getting more effort into the Open Source process again.
Please chime in!
Please consider getting involved JUST A LITTLE BIT to help with testing and to help move "gnulib-assist" fleshed out and available.
Thanks!
Best,
Bill.
I recall that being a licensing issue - VSI can't support HP VMS at a code fix level/release updates/updated LPs for it, only VSI builds. While for example, i'm told they have the rights to do a VAX release, they can't release (only do tech support/troubleshooting - but not issue patches) any updates/fixes for it unless they made a VAX release their own, even if it was a 100% binary identical (except VSI branding) release. You'd then have to update to their release (even if it was just a branding change and zero else) in order to use any LP updates from them.
Basically, it has to be a VSI release to use VSI LPs. That's an HP agreement problem, not a technical problem, unfortunately.
At the same point too, since VSI isn't selling VAX licensing, you still have to claw to HP if you need that - and there's maybe one or two people inside HP who can still help with that, as far as i'm aware.
Last edit: Gary Sparkes 2023-05-29
On May 29, 2023, at 12:37 AM, Gary Sparkes garysparkes@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
While this observation may be true of LPs in general, it seems unlikely to be true for OpenSSH since HPE does not have any copyright claims on it, the port was produced by VSI, not HPE, and it is released under a liberal open source license:
https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/src/usr.bin/ssh/LICENCE?rev=HEAD
So I don't think there are any legal restrictions that would preclude VSI from releasing OpenSSH for HPE releases of VMS. But it's awfully hard to think of any reason that they would do so.
Craig A. Berry
"... getting out of a sonnet is much more
difficult than getting in."
Brad Leithauser
Well, as I said before, I had heard that they can't offer any binary packages - open source or not - for VSI branded releases, hence not releasing anything for VAX even though they support customers with VAX because of their license agreement.
I suppose they could provide a patch set and MMS file for you to build yourself, but they wouldn't support that build..... so likely just not worth their time.
Just like if they did a straight rebranded recompile of the old OS .... not enough customers, though it has been mentioned they would entertain doing a VAX build of the OS so that they could if someone threw enough (and i read that to mean 'A LOT') of money at them.
But this is related to why they can't give hobbyist licenses for VAX either most likely, unless they make a VSI build of VAX/VMS. Which, they've said they could, but you have to make it worthwhile to them.....