Re: [Bluemusic-users] Aggregate SoundObjects? (Combi's?)

[Steven Y. <ste...@gm...>]

Hi Michael,

Hope you've had a good vacation!

I can understand the concern to make things too complicated by having
more than one way to do things, but I really think that the use and
representation of the Aggregate is different enough to warrant it's
use.  Also, while the Aggregate would be most convenient for its
purpose, it does in my mind represent a musical idea and different way
of working than the PolyObject.

For the PolyObject to show its subobject's editors but to not visually
represent the objects in time would make it not line up with things in
my head, and one of the important things about the Aggregate is that
when one edits joint objects one knows the temporal relationship of
values.  Not being able to see the contents of sub-PolyObjects too
would be

In a way, for the PolyObject the contents of individual objects are
perhaps not as much the primary focus as much as the relationships of
the objects to each other, while in an Aggregate the contents of each
object are indeed the primary focus.  That is not to diminish the
importance of the contents of objects in a PolyObject, just a matter
of focus.

I think if we make the PolyObject show editors for values within, it
would be a lot to manage mentally and I imagine for myself I would
rather go inside of the PolyObject to do that work.  But for an
aggregate, where all the times of objects are shared and the contents
of each object is where I'm focused to work on, it seems like a good
fit of form and function.

It seems to me that the two objects would have different focuses and
would serve their individual jobs better separately than trying to
make the PolyObject have too many features that might dilute its
effectiveness in being a group of objects where temporal relationship
is important.

steven


On 9/5/06, Michael Bechard <got...@ya...> wrote:
> Sorry for the late reply; I've been on vacation.
>
> Ok, I see the problem you're trying to solve, which
> mainly seems to be a matter of convienience, yes? The
> only thing is, this could cause some cinfusion in the
> users, having two sound objects so similar in use. In
> order to prevent this, and (in general) to have a more
> tidy framework, why not add this convenient kind of
> "in-line" editing as an option to the PolyObjects?
>
> For instance, there could be a checkbox option in the
> editor window for poly objects indicating that the
> constituent editors show up in the parent poly
> object's editor, like with your Aggregator object. Any
> embedded poly objects of the parent poly just wouldn't
> show up in the in-line editor; you'd have to
> double-click the poly (as usual) to edit them.
>
> Michael Bechard
>
> --- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > I think that's a good question and hopefully I can
> > explain the image
> > in my head!  In terms of compositional problems, the
> > Aggregate is
> > actually a more limited SoundObject than the
> > PolyObject, as it would
> > enforce all objects within it to have the same
> > duration.  On the other
> > hand, it's usefulness is that one doesn't have to
> > drill down to edit
> > the SoundObjects contained as one does with a
> > PolyObject, and that it
> > makes multiple SoundObjects which really are
> > dependent on each other
> > to create a single idea easy to edit and put
> > together.  While
> > PolyObjects can scale to musical ideas of any
> > duration (i.e. motive,
> > phrase, part, section, etc.) and keep things in
> > sync, I can see its
> > purpose differently as working on a level more of
> > grouping a number of
> > independent ideas and working with then working with
> > them as a single
> > idea, while an Aggregate SoundObject being more of
> > singular idea that
> > is made up of multiple SoundObjects that do depend
> > on each other to
> > create that single idea.
> >
> > For instance, one can put together a PianoRoll and a
> > LineObject
> > together into a PolyObject to keep them grouped as a
> > single gesture.
> > The PianoRoll is used for the primary note material
> > but the LineObject
> > is used to control filter cutoff for the instrument
> > that those notes
> > are for.  Working with them on the timeline, let say
> > you want to tweak
> > the parameters of the lines, or adjust a note. To do
> > that with a
> > PolyObject, you would have to double click it and
> > then enter into the
> > timeline of the PolyObject to edit, but with an
> > Aggregate, you could
> > stay on the top timeline and edit notes and the
> > lines in the editors
> > stacked on top of each other.  As a matter of work
> > time efficiency, I
> > think it would save time to do it this way, and I
> > think logically it
> > is a clean solution.
> >
> > The PolyObjects would still be of great use in
> > working with groups of
> > ideas, and would even be better served by that than
> > it would the
> > Aggregate.  But if the ideas are really only
> > supposed to be grouped
> > together it might be quicker to work with the
> > Aggregate than a
> > PolyObject.
> >
> > I have had a compositional idea myself too that
> > could make good use of
> > the Aggregate; I could do the same idea within an
> > ObjectBuilder
> > object, but that it just for this case.  Down the
> > road I can imagine
> > wanting to put together a PianoRoll and LineObject.
> > As it seems a
> > tidy solution for the use cases that are in my mind,
> > I think I will go
> > ahead and implement it.
> >
> > Hope that explains somewhat where I'm coming from
> > with this and some
> > of my own compositional concerns which I think would
> > make this useful!
> >
> > steven
> >
> >
> > On 9/2/06, Michael Bechard <got...@ya...>
> > wrote:
> > > What problem does this solve that a regular
> > polyObject
> > > doesn't?
> > >
> > > --- Steven Yi <ste...@gm...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > I just had an idea for soundObjects which I
> > think
> > > > may be a somewhat
> > > > clean way to accomplish something that I think
> > has
> > > > been on mine and
> > > > can answer some of the problems others have
> > > > mentioned.  I was thinking
> > > > of creating a new meta-SoundObject that can
> > contain
> > > > any number of
> > > > other SoundObjects.  The SoundObjects would be
> > bound
> > > > together to share
> > > > the same time properties (start, duration, Time
> > > > Behavior).
> > > >
> > > > So you could create a Combi (I think I heard
> > that
> > > > term for Reason
> > > > Synthesizer Combinations, maybe we could use a
> > > > different term?) on the
> > > > timeline, click it to bring up the editor.  In
> > the
> > > > editor, you could
> > > > then add SoundObjects (i.e. a PianoRoll and a
> > > > LineObject) and the
> > > > editor would stack up the editors on top of each
> > > > other.  The user
> > > > could adjust the height of the individual
> > editors
> > > > within the Combi
> > > > editor.
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > Also, I am still very interested in parameter
> > > > automation for
> > > > instruments and effects (drawing lines on the
> > > > timeline itself), but I
> > > > can see a real usefulness for this kind of combi
> > in
> > > > the short term and
> > > > also for things where control signals are bound
> > to
> > > > an object and not
> > > > really continuous data (as it would be for
> > parameter
> > > > automation).
> > > >
> > > > Feedback would be very much appreciated!
> > > > steven
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to
> > support
> > > > web services, security?
> > > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated
> > > > technology to make your job easier
> > > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server
> > v.1.0.1
> > > > based on Apache Geronimo
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Bluemusic-users mailing list
> > > > Blu...@li...
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support
> > web services, security?
> > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated
> > technology to make your job easier
> > > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1
> > based on Apache Geronimo
> > >
> >
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Bluemusic-users mailing list
> > > Blu...@li...
> > >
> >
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
> > >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support
> > web services, security?
> > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated
> > technology to make your job easier
> > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1
> > based
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> http://www.talesoffireandash.com/
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Bluemusic-users mailing list
> Blu...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>